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Any students/helpers dance on2?
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Valentin



Joined: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 49
Location: The centre of the Universe, so far :)

PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 7:07 pm    Post subject: Clave? Really? Reply with quote

timbero1 wrote:
Most salsa teachers in Toronto cannot dance contratiempo to a song, because you really need to listen to the clave in the music. To dance contratiempo, you are still dancing to the clave, but your steps are hitting the diferent parts of it.


Really? If you are so knowledgeable as to criticize "most salsa teachers" of Toronto, can you tell which clave pattern is used in these 2 songs?:

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqESFVKUeDg
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMEKWRCuWz8

Well, if you can't answer this in a few days then I'll post the correct answer and also my argumentation for a shocking revelation: a salsa dancer (even a professional one) doesn't need to care about clave. Stay tuned Cool
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timbero1



Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 63

PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 8:41 pm    Post subject: no entiendo Reply with quote

what do you mean by clave pattern?
Do you mean a tiempo or contratiempo?
Do you mean 3-2 or 2-3 patterns?
Do you mean the son (salsa) clave or the rumba clave?
Or are you talking about on 1 or on 2?
Sorry I don't know what you are referring to.
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timbero1



Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 63

PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 8:47 pm    Post subject: contratiempo Reply with quote

Sure ask any salsa teacher near you to dance CONTRATIEMPO. They'll give you a face like what are you talking about.

Valentin, dancing without needing the clave ? Now you are the extremist !! You know how much damage you are causing?
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Valentin



Joined: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 49
Location: The centre of the Universe, so far :)

PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 9:15 pm    Post subject: Re: no entiendo Reply with quote

timbero1 wrote:
what do you mean by clave pattern?
Do you mean a tiempo or contratiempo?
Do you mean 3-2 or 2-3 patterns?
Do you mean the son (salsa) clave or the rumba clave?
Or are you talking about on 1 or on 2?
Sorry I don't know what you are referring to.


Well, what do you think I meant by clave pattern? How many of your questions include the word "pattern"? Can you read your own questions to find it, please?

I wanted to see if you knew what you're talking about regarding the "need to listen to the clave in the music". Now I see you're confused Smile Don't worry, you can still search for the right answer, and I promise I'll post it, in case you can't find it Very Happy
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Salsasian



Joined: 27 Mar 2008
Posts: 49
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 9:49 pm    Post subject: Define contra tiempo Reply with quote

timbero1,

What are you actually referring to when you use the term "a tiempo" or "contra tiempo"? My understanding is that for cuban style dancers, "contra tiempo" simply means to dance "on-2." I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say that "a tiempo" falls more on the melody and "contra tiempo" falls on the percussion. Are you saying that "a tiempo" equates to dancing to the melody and "contra tiempo" means to dance on the rhythm of the clave? How can something be "more on the melody?" More relative to what? In fact, what "falls"? Are you referring to one's steps falling?

I also find it very vague to describe contratiempo as "dancing to the clave, but your steps are hitting the different parts of it." If we refer to the "son clave," over two measures of 4, there are 3 notes in the first measure and 2 notes in the second - which beats would you specify as hitting the different parts? The fourth beat in the first measure? The third beat in the second measure? This is how I would interpret Valentin's statement that the clave is irrelevant.

I interpret Valentin's statement in a way that I believe can be understandable. Many confuse the "clave" for the accented percussion of the "claves" that is typically heard on the "2" beat amongst others. From a musical perspective, the "clave" merely refers to the underlying rhythm. I think it is purely academic whether one can or should dance "to the clave." If you talk to Al Espinoza, he is a strong proponent of simply dancing to "the music." He has referred to it as "millennium style" and he can certainly live up to it by dancing to the melody, or to the vocals, or on any beat.

Eric Freeman has a very interesting write-up and he discusses how advanced dancers distinguish between dancing to the beat versus dancing on the beat. Is this what we are actually debating?
http://www.salsaville.com/dancing_behind_the_beat.htm

Interesting topic, and I think purely academic. When on the dancefloor social dancing, do we really have all these things in our heads?
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Alfred

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vorada



Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks timbero1
To tell you truth I never know count in salsa (embarrassing?) , I never understand explanations about it (sorry Sharon ) , that on 3 you have to do this or on 7 you have to do that
I am going by the melody, by the rhythm , as other ppl said natural 

I will definetelly attend LURIN TAPAS one day
Thanks a lot for information

Now after all addition comments from Valentin and Salserian I am confused even more about Salsa on 2
Can somebody please give me good link (an example?) of salsa on 2
Whatever I see on Ytube are too advanced and still looks like Cuban but with more spinning
I want to see simple steps to make a difference
thanks

Rada
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Salsasian



Joined: 27 Mar 2008
Posts: 49
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 11:14 pm    Post subject: Art and not pseudo-science Reply with quote

The following link provides an interesting narrative on the topic of the styles of salsa out there:
http://www.salsavancouver.net/articles/nysalsa.html

The most interesting aspect of this analysis piece is the challenge of applying a pseudo-scientific approach to salsa and it's many styles. Salsa is an art. The teaching and learning of various styles provides you the basics of expressing yourself through dance.

Rada, head over to Acrobat on a Friday night, there are a lot of On-2 dancers there and you'll see the difference. Observe the timing of their feet when doing a basic step. There are a lot of write-ups online on the differences between on-1 and on-2. Here are a few links instead of me trying to re-invent the wheel:

http://www.salsanewyork.com/ourdancemusic.htm#DEFINITION
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salsa_(dance)
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Alfred

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Kimberlita



Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 372
Location: Downtown

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can dance on2...But it can be confusing when I'm constantly switching between the two!
Basically, the "quicks" are extra quick, and the "slow" is extra slow compared to on1
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Kimberlita



Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 372
Location: Downtown

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can dance on2...But it can be confusing when I'm constantly switching between the two!
Basically, the "quicks" are extra quick, and the "slow" is extra slow compared to on1
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SKDanceLover



Joined: 08 Apr 2008
Posts: 72

PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can dance on2 as well, it's just a different way of listening to the music. I think it would be great if Toronto Dance started teaching on2 as this style is getting quite popular in Toronto. Also, I think it would encourage people to really listen to the music and improve their musicality.
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Somchay



Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SKDanceLover,

ifreestyle.ca specialize on2 dancing in Toronto.
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