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observation at outings

 
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michel



Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 67
Location: thornhill

PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:30 pm    Post subject: observation at outings Reply with quote

I have noticed that after learning the complex routine at the outing that nobody (as far as i saw) is using the newly studied routine at the following dance.
my question is : wouldn't it be better if we learn in a much shorter session one move only and learn how to incorporate it in the moves that we already know. this way , i believe (not only is it going to be much easier for sharon & evan) but a lot of people will incorporate the move in that night's dance and the move will stick with them.
does anyone remember what we learned 1,2 or 3 outings ago, or is it just me that forgot ?
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Kimberlita



Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 372
Location: Downtown

PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's usually up to the individual as to whether or not they choose to use the combination in social dancing. Sometimes people will take pieces of the combinations that they like and incorporate them into their dancing.

The point of the combinations is not necessarily for you to copy and paste them into social dance settings, rather the point is to inspire you to be creative with the moves you already know. A lot of the moves that Sharon and Evan teach you in the club classes are just built around moves that you already know! They are just tacked together in a new and unique way and incorporate more styling and flair.

If you like some of the combinations you see, practice them over and over until you are able to lead them properly and can even lead them to girls who haven't learned the lesson. And don't be afraid to be creative and make up your own moves too!
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analytix



Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am a big fan of the combos Sharon and Evan teach in the outings. But I could only remember the last one. Sharon usually says practice it at least twenty times to embed it permanently into your memory. It will be great if one can do this. But itís not always easy given the mood and situation of the outings. I think it will be more fun and enjoyable if the combos are a little bit shorter. In that way it will be more relaxing for everybody.

P.S. It will be great if you guys can come up with a new DVD in the future with the collection of all the combos you taught in the outings.
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Salsasian



Joined: 27 Mar 2008
Posts: 49
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:38 pm    Post subject: Different opinions Reply with quote

I'm sure there will be varying opinions on this, but from my perspective practice of new moves that you are not yet familiar with (especially difficult patterns) is for the classroom, on your own or at a practice session. Unless you've mastered it in the hour of the lesson, the dance floor is not really the place to "figure out" whether you can do a new move. Perhaps pick pieces to throw in where you are confident, and build up to the full pattern.

If you have an accommodating partner who doesn't mind, definitely head into a quiet corner and practice the move or moves. Plenty of people come out to the outings just to have fun. It isn't the best experience as a follower to be repeatedly led into patterns that the follower just learnt and struggles with.

That said, it could be as simple as asking your partner..."Were you here for the lesson? Want to practice the combo a few times?" Then everyone has a great time, and the important part is to have fun!
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SalsaTO



Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:22 pm    Post subject: Long Combinations - Turn Pattern Learning Curves Reply with quote

Learning combinations is usually easier for the ladies, especially if they are good followers and if the combination does not have outrageously choreographed elements with minimal lead. Don't forget that the guys have to learn and remember where to apply the lead, in addition to the footwork. And, guys have a longer learning curve than the ladies, so it really does take us longer to learn and retain a new turn pattern or combination.

It sometimes takes me a month or more to get some combinations working to the point where I'll try them out on anyone. I usually 'sleep' on them for a day or so, then try pieces of them out on my partner with basics in between each element. The parts I like I keep, the rest I dump. As I get more confident with the combination, I drop the basics. Everyone has their preferences. And yeah, it really helps to have a regular partner.

Remember that a combination is a sequence of moves or movements - travelling turn, reverse travelling turn, copa, stop and go, check, various hand passes and changes. It takes time to master those building blocks and time to work with them in combinations. But once one has learned enough of those building blocks, then picking up a combination is relatively easy as most of the movements comprising the combination are already familiar.

If the combination is simply a new sequence of familiar moves, perhaps the instructor can identify and run through the moves in a familiar combination, then re-order them into the new combination. The attendees may be able to relate a little easier with the new combination.

However, learning new building blocks and a combination at the same time is indeed challenging and can be frustrating. Perhaps that is what frustrates some attendees.

In a one hour club lesson or a one off workshop, the instructor will pack as much as they can into that one hour - less if you include the short practice at the end. Why? Partially to demonstrate their own mastery of Salsa, partially to encourage the attendees to consider lessons with them to learn more, and partially to challenge the people who do turn up, to push them to a new level.

As for practicing that newly learned combination, my experience is most of the workshop people seem to vanish right after the lesson and most DJs start fast music that precludes working with unfamiliar combinations. The ladies need leaders who know the combination to practice it and the leaders need patient followers who have walked through the combination at least once. Thaat's probably why one does not see too many practicing that new combination.

Such is life.
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Valentin



Joined: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 49
Location: The centre of the Universe, so far :)

PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:35 pm    Post subject: Outing Lessons Reply with quote

SalsaTO wrote:
As for practicing that newly learned combination, my experience is most of the workshop people seem to vanish right after the lesson and most DJs start fast music that precludes working with unfamiliar combinations. The ladies need leaders who know the combination to practice it and the leaders need patient followers who have walked through the combination at least once. Thaat's probably why one does not see too many practicing that new combination.


Totally agree with your message, especially the last paragraph.
I think it would be very helpful if at the end of the lesson the instructor would encourage the students (can I say "the ladies"? Smile ) to stay and practice the pattern for 10 minutes more (which would be after the lesson, no question) and in those 10 minutes the DJ would play some slow/medium tempo songs.

Also, Alfred's suggestion - to ask the lady if she was there for the lesson - is good, sometimes she says "yes" Smile
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michel



Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 67
Location: thornhill

PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

seems that 5 guys here are of the same (more or less) opinion.
i have also noticed that helpers too are not using what was learned at the club lesson, at the dance right after.
wouldn't it be wise than to, instead of a complex pattern to learn one or too "moves" and to ask the dancers to incorporate those in moves and patters that they already know ?
( on an individual basis).
i believe that: a. more poeple will use what they have just learned and use it immediatley after, and b. the dancers will not look like a performance group. rather each couple will execute their own dance using the new moves in between their own moves that they are confident executing.
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Sharon



Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 418

PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:49 am    Post subject: Club Classes Reply with quote

HI Everyone!

Great posts and all valid questions. So here's my answer:

1) Learning individual moves is for the classroom. That is what we do. We take an hour to break down one move, try it with different speeds and variations of music, different partner, and incorporate it into a combination. We go slowly.

2) If we were to do the same thing in the clubs as we did in a classroom, very few would attend - trust me! People want to be challenged visually and want something to aspire to become on the dance floor. They want something different then their group classes and they want to be excited and stimulated on a night out. If it was the same routine as class it would be boring.

3) This is the most important part and the part that most of the men are missing: women would not attend. It is hard enough to get women to come to the outing classes for some reason. Women like a long routine - they like to be challenged. They like to see ladies styling incorporated because for women they don't need to memorize and that is where the huge difference lies.

4) Every outing I announce the same thing: You do not have to remember the entire combination. Very few would. I know that I forget the combination as well. What I do know to be true is if you do it 10-20 times that night, then you will remember the highlights of the combination and that is all that matters. You then have learned a new move or two or three and have fun in the process and kept the women engaged.

5) You don't have to do the whole combination. You can ask a partner to join you and tell them you want to concentrate on a couple of moves instead of the whole combo. It is up to you what you decide to do. I have seen many students stop half way through and just practice the first part of the combo.

6) You can bring a small camera and ask someone to tape you doing the combo at the end - then take it home and break it down. Please never tape an instructor - it is not really appropriate. But taping yourself and seeing how you look doing the combo would help you in many ways!

Hope this info helps to clarify why instructors do this. We didn't see many women's perspectives on this post but if we did it would likely mimic my sentiments.

Keep having fun on the dance floor!!
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Sharon
Toronto Dance Salsa
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Toronto Salsa Lessons / Toronto Salsa Classes
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